Hazan, Jack and David Mingay. "Behind The Scenes of Rude Boy." MUMMY'S WEEKLY, BBC Radio, Mar. 1980. Interview by Sarah Ward, duration 30 minutes.
Jack Hazan & David Mingay (Rude Boy Directors)
— Interview about their documentary film Rude Boy featuring The Clash, recorded shortly after the film's UK cinema release (February 1980)
— Details the film's portrayal of British youth culture through protagonist Ray Gange, including scenes at 10 Downing Street and Brixton
— Addresses criticism from mainstream press including Margaret Hicksman of the Daily Mail who called it "filth and rubbish"
— Discusses the film's political themes: racial tension in London, clashes with police, and The Clash's relationship to these issues
— Reveals behind-the-scenes stories: Ray Gange moving to Los Angeles during production, and the inclusion of Clash tracks like Police and Thieves and Rudy Can't Fail
— Rare example of punk-era content on BBC Radio, likely broadcast on Radio 4
Transcript
00:00
Sarah Ward: It's Mummy's Weekly Supplement and now Sarah Ward talks to the producers of the new Rude Boy film. I should point out that in the interview there are dialogue extracts from the film which contain language that could be offensive.
00:20
Garage Land from The Clash, and on Mummy's Weekly this week, we look at the film Rude Boy. With me in the studio, the producers and director of the film, David Mingay and Jack Hazan. Now, the music papers have been reasonably attracted to the film in some ways, but the daily press have hated it. How do you stand on the critics, Jack?
00:41
Jack Hazan: I don't see it that the daily papers have hated, actually. Well, they've tended to come up with sort of shock horror probe headlines, haven't they? One lady did, who I think is possibly a Mary Whitehouse supporter, slammed us. Popular daily papers I'm talking about, really. Yes, it's Margaret Hicksman of the Daily Mail who slammed us and said it was filth and rubbish because she didn't really want to look at that side of Britain at all. I mean, she's an older lady and she didn't want to know about that sort of thing.
01:06
Sarah Ward: Were you making a film that was basically about the politics of youth in Britain, or the lack of politics amongst the youth of Britain, or about the politics of the rock business as expressed by a band like The Clash?
Jack Hazan: Well, I think we were making a film to entertain people, predominantly younger people, and it basically concerned the life and times of a young boy called Ray Gange, who was a real person and who lived in Brixton. He now lives in Los Angeles, by the way. He got out.
01:35
Jack Hazan: and his attraction to the band The Clash, and what happened when he tried to become a roadie.
Sarah Ward: And you were portraying The Clash with warts and all, in a sense, weren't you?
Jack Hazan: No, I don't see why you say that, actually. No, absolutely not. They haven't got any warts. In lots of so-called rock films, the band is sort of up on a bit of a pedestal, isn't it?
01:58
Jack Hazan: You don't see them running through woodland glades, and that's the thing, that's for sure. You see them going about their business, which is, you know, going on the concert halls around the country, which is what they were famous for.
Sarah Ward: Actually, I would suggest to you that it's also all been very useful publicity for you, hasn't it? The fact that The Clash appeared to fall out with you over the film Rude Boy.
Jack Hazan: This is absolute nonsense. It hasn't been useful at all, because now we have a load of confused fans. They're not sure whether they should go to the movie...
02:25
Jack Hazan: or not go to the movies. It really hasn't been very useful at all. One of the sadnesses, I think, for the Clash fans in particular is that because of this dispute that you've been involved in, there's not going to be much chance of hearing the music from the film out on an album.
02:40
Jack Hazan: Well, this is certainly regrettable, but what can we do? I mean, so we've brought you along loads of... We've brought you along the tapes, and we hope you play as much music as possible within this slot, because it may never be heard again. Remember, the hit song from the album, Rudy Can't Fail, they put it onto their new LP. Instead of leaving it as a single this week, we should all be hearing it on Capitol this week. Because Rudy Can't Fail is the title and the message of the film, and that's what they wrote.
03:07
Jack Hazan: They wrote a song about Ray, and that's the hit song of the film. And that's on the album London Calling.
Sarah Ward: I think that most people who've seen the film would agree that the sequences involving The Clash in concert are very good indeed. Was this something you're particularly proud of?
Jack Hazan: Well, we're proud of the whole thing. We think the whole thing is sort of an integrated movie. I mean, I find it very, very glamorous. When I come out, I feel very high.
Sarah Ward: But did you find that you captured something of the rawness of an energetic band on stage?
03:36
Jack Hazan: The Clash are a very raw, energetic band, and they're very, very colourful, and their light shows are amazing, and we've got all that. And it's not just a question of standing at the back of a hall with a lens artificially bringing The Clash close to us, the viewer. We were actually there on stage, you know, feet away from them.
Sarah Ward: Did a lot of the footage end up on the cutting room floor?
Jack Hazan: No, very little. We used virtually everything. I think we'll go back to some music from the film now, and this is Police and Thieves by The Clash from the film Rude Boy.
04:17
Sarah Ward: That's The Clash there with Police and Thieves from the film Rude Boy. Jack is on. The Clash are now saying that they'll only take responsibility for their performance in the film and for nothing else.
Jack Hazan: Well, that's fair enough, as they're in it for virtually the whole two hours of the movie. That's fair enough. That means they take responsibility for the whole of the movie.
Sarah Ward: But would you not have liked them to be a bit more involved, quite honestly?
Jack Hazan: They are involved. I mean, I don't see why they now say they're not.
Sarah Ward: But involved in the kind of picture of Britain you were painting?
Jack Hazan: They're totally involved. I mean, what I am sorry about is that they're away in America all the time.
04:48
Sarah Ward: Can we turn to some dialogue from the film now? Can we pick up a sequence of the film where Ray, the anti-hero, I suppose we could describe him as such, gets picked up by two coppers outside 10 Downing Street? Could you tell us a little bit of the scenario that went into making that particular sequence?
Jack Hazan: Yes, well, what happened is that Ray, who works for beer money in this sex shop in Soho that we all know and love,
05:13
Jack Hazan: He leaves late at night, and he, in a rather good mood, walks along Whitehall, past 10 Downing Street, singing one of The Clash songs, Complete Control. While doing so, there's a sort of a waiting, plain-clothes car, out of which two coppers get out, and harass him. And Ray's not in the mood for it at all, and eventually he gets thrown in the car and told he's drunk.
05:42
Sarah Ward: And that's the sequence where Ray gets picked up by two coppers outside 10 Downing Street in the film Rude Boy. There seems to be at times amongst people who've seen the film a little bit of conflict in understanding exactly where your politics were going. That one portion of the people who've seen the film seem to feel that it was the politics of the rock scene, if you like, and others think that it was a much deeper political statement about Britain today. I mean, were your intentions just that, the second? David?
06:09
David Mingay: Well, for instance, the kind of people who complain... They don't complain, they just seem to be a bit confused. Well, somebody told me that, you know, the left-wing people said that the politics were specious. So I say it's not surprising because we show that a lot of the left-wing groups that are holding rallies and shouting out loud and putting up posters, that their arguments are specious.
06:31
David Mingay: So really, the way we're really looking at the politics is more in the way The Clash is looking at politics, which is like the truth is only known to gutter snipers. But really, what we're trying to say is that it's not just left and right. It's like haves and have-nots. And it's not, when there's not that much choice between Labour and Conservative.
06:50
David Mingay: There must be another way to think about it or look at it. It doesn't mean we're saying you've got to look at it. On the contrary, we're saying that you've not got to look at it, like you're being told you've got to look at it on the television, on the radio, everywhere.
07:03
Sarah Ward: Haven't the police commented at all about sequences particularly involving them in the film? Would you expect them to? I mean, would you like to enter into some kind of argument or discussion with them?
Jack Hazan: It's terribly easy to slag off the police or anybody. It's terribly easy. And I think that's what people, some people, some extreme people would like us to do.
07:20
Jack Hazan: But we're not going to fall into that trap, and neither did we do so on the movie. I don't think we've had no reaction at all from the police, and I don't expect any, you know. They're just shown as they are. Sometimes they're shown as rather charming fellows.
07:36
Sarah Ward: This is absolutely true. Not in the sequence we just heard, in the kind of language that was being used. In a sequence following that, they're shown to be very, very jolly, and they're laughing. There are about 1,500 police lined up outside a hall, and they're all laughing and joking. They look very, very nice indeed.
07:53
Sarah Ward: Is the kind of language that is used in the film most of the time something that's going to be off-putting in the end?
Jack Hazan: Well, you know, I find that very surprising and rather hypocritical if people say that to me having seen the film or anticipating what they might hear in the film, because 80%, 90% of teenagers today speak in this fashion. Should we then have cleaned up their language? We couldn't do that. And I'll tell you another thing is that I'm sure that they picked it up at home from their parents.
08:22
Sarah Ward: Would you not, though, also want people to see the film who aren't actually of the generation that the film's about, and perhaps through seeing the film understand something of what that generation's going through?
Jack Hazan: Well, after Margaret Hinksman had written this article saying it was undiluted filth or something in the Daily Mail, a woman wrote in to the letters page and said she thought that all parents should see the film because they ought to know what's going down with their kids.
08:45
Sarah Ward: Another major criticism has been that it's terribly long, the film.
Jack Hazan: The film is an epic. It's of epic proportions. I mean, Ben-Hur runs about three or four hours, and nobody complains. This runs only two hours, which is not that long. And a greater part of it, or a large part of it, is the fantastic music of The Clash. It's about 40 minutes of music in four-track stereo. Also, I'll tell you why. People who say that, they're usually older people who don't know or can't understand Clash songs, Clash attitudes.
09:12
Jack Hazan: And actually the songs really pick up arguments you've seen in the film. So when you've been through a police scene, 1500 police in a difficult situation with demonstrators and so on, then you hear Police and Thieves, the song is really picking up the argument. But if people aren't inclined to give The Clash any credit for what they're singing about, or the fact that they sing about very serious matters, not just love songs,
09:35
Jack Hazan: then they just write off the songs, and they're bored during the songs maybe if it's not their kind of music. But I think that's caused that problem.
Sarah Ward: The discussion about racism in the film does come rather late on in the film, which seems perhaps a little out of place in the sense that racism is one of the big discussions of our times, and perhaps should have been a more central theme.
09:57
Jack Hazan: I think it is the central theme, one of the central themes, and it begins right at the very beginning of the movie, contrary to what you say. It's just that it is then explained towards the end of the movie.
Sarah Ward: Yes, well, the explanation comes so much later on in the movie, and as it is so long, there seems to be a great gap.
10:18
Sarah Ward: As it is so long, there seems to be a great gap between the initial idea and the explanation.
Jack Hazan: There's an atmosphere of racial tension which I think is truthful to London at the moment. Right from the beginning, The Clash is really the punk reggae songwriters, the people who first did it, who first picked up from reggae. And if you're hearing reggae songs like Police and Thieves or their own like Safe European Home, which is fantastic in the film, one of the climaxes,
10:45
Jack Hazan: You hear the music. You see the walls covered with racist slogans. You hear the National Front. Finally, you start to see what they're really talking about later on in the film. This is how the meaning of the film comes out.
Sarah Ward: In the end, what has happened to Ray Gange out of all this? I mean, you say he's now living in Los Angeles. Have you changed him completely, do you think?
11:05
Jack Hazan: No, I don't think we changed him one bit. What happened was that towards the end of the filming he suddenly gave us a deadline. He said, "I just can't stand this place anymore. I'm getting out. I'm going to Los Angeles with one of my mates. You know, I'm going. I'm flying Freddie Laker." So he gave us a deadline, and we worked our asses off to meet that deadline to finish his scenes, and then the morning after, off he went to Los Angeles.
11:29
Jack Hazan: And he met a girl there, married, and eventually got himself a green card so he could work. And he's now working, he's putting up buildings, office blocks.
11:39
Sarah Ward: It sounds, though, as though the film did change him in quite a large extent then, because he was kind of just living a street life, and he's now gone off and done all those respectable things.
Jack Hazan: He had this in mind all the time. He could not stand in London. No ambition of his could ever be fulfilled. He could never get out of what he was doing, which was basically being on the dole or occasionally working in a sex shop. He could see no way out. And I think it's the same for millions of kids in London today.
12:05
Jack Hazan: or hundreds of thousands, shall I say. But when people slag them off for being layabouts, all this, that, and the other, or street kids, they're only looking for a job, and I'm sure most of them find one, and especially when they find a wife.
Sarah Ward: What do you two hope people will get out of this film in the end? Anything, or is it just a reflection of a state of Britain that you see through the lens of a camera?
12:28
Jack Hazan: Um, it's a difficult question to ask, and to answer, rather. But what I'd like them to... I would like them to get huge enjoyment out of it. That's what I would like. Maybe David would like something else from it. I don't know.
David Mingay: No, I've noticed that people do.
12:47
David Mingay: The audience is sitting there gazing in amazement. It's a very glamorous picture. I think somebody should say that, even if I have to say it myself.
Sarah Ward: Well, certainly those people who go to see the film because they're going to focus on The Clash, because The Clash is something of a hero or heroes to them, are going to get that sort of glamour out of the film. But I just wondered if there was also some other kind of feeling you'd like people to go away from the cinema with about the lives that they're leading and about the possibilities, if there are any in the film, that you can leave them with of changing those lives.
13:17
David Mingay: Well, we're not missionaries as such. We can't change things. We can only show what we see and do it in as truthful a way as possible, and that we've done. And we've shown all these kids who are unemployed, great armies of them, and they go to the concerts of The Clash and derive huge enjoyment. And that's what we've shown.
13:36
Sarah Ward: Do you think, though, that Britain has changed in the time that this film was made and the period it was made about, which was really Jubilee Year, wasn't it? It was made between Jubilee Year and last year with the advent of the new government. I don't know. Do you think it's changed, David?
13:52
Sarah Ward: I mean, if you went out today, would you make the same kind of film, do you think?
David Mingay: I don't know. All I know is that when Ray came back, he came back to see the film because he'd never seen it. And so he saw England again after a year. And he said to me just before he left last Saturday, he said, "There's only four years left." So obviously he thinks it's getting worse.
14:22
David Mingay: You couldn't possibly make a film like this without including music. It would be crazy, I mean, because the music means so much to these kids. The film is about these kids who have virtually nothing, and there's no promise for them or anything like that in life, by anybody. The only pleasures they get, real pleasures they get, are going to see their heroes, if you wish, up on stage in concert halls, such as The Clash.
14:52
Jack Hazan: We'll just start off by shooting the things on the streets, because it is very much a street film, we think. And we started back in 1977, shooting, I mean, everything was happening in 77. This punk thing had suddenly happened, exploded. There was the music. Suddenly these kids were looking very odd, you know, colored hair, safety pins, all that, remember all that? And it seems like years ago.
15:22
Jack Hazan: these sweaty clubs around Waldorf Street where the singers would sing with English accents. Weird. I mean, we hadn't had that. You know, we had the Beatles whenever they sang. They sang with American accents. And it's the first time that we felt that English youth was actually expressing itself in a genuine manner without trying to ape their cousins across the, you know, across the waters in America. So we were filming all these street happenings
15:53
Jack Hazan: National Front demonstrations, punch-ups, that sort of thing. We weren't sure where we were going. We knew we wanted music, and we were trying to get Ray at that time. It took us about six months to get Ray. He's like one of those old-fashioned novels, you know, the first type of novel, I forgot what you call it, where the guy, like Don Quixote, if you wish, where the guy sort of leads you into a situation and then becomes a fall guy himself, you know.
16:19
Jack Hazan: And that's what Ray is, you know. He's well-intentioned, and he stumbles, and he fumbles, and he falls, and then he picks himself up again. And carries you on into another situation. Ray, the picaresque hero, is trying to get a job with The Clash as a roadie. But instead, he's given a political lesson by the band's singer, Joe Strummer.
Ray Gange: I don't know. I don't think The Clash would be a political union. It's like, I don't know, most left-wing politics, they're like...
16:47
Ray Gange: Real hypocrisy. It's like the Socialist Workers Party. They say, like, left wing is the truth. Follow the left wing politics. But, like, I don't know, left wing is going to fuck everybody up. Especially Socialist Workers, like, all Communist-backed, like all the others are. I know how you feel, like, because in Russia, it's just a new... It's just exactly the same as it was before they had the revolution. Just a new load of people driving around in the black cars.
17:14
Ray Gange: and all the other people walking, just the same as before. I mean, I know what you mean, but... That's what it is here, innit? But what I think, why I think the left wing is better than the right wing is because it, at least it's kind of, it's not just for the few. There's the many slaving for the few.
Joe Strummer: Yeah, but I know what my idea is to, like, make sure that I become one of the few, you know? What's the point of being one of the few?
Ray Gange: Yeah, at the moment there ain't, but, like, what happens when we all become so-called equal, right? And someone's got to control it?
17:44
Ray Gange: then the people that control it then they're as you said before like some people are going to be riding around in the black cars so all i want to do is make sure that i'm riding around and not fucking walking and yeah like when i read about the Socialist Workers Party you know it's more convinced that i'm a capitalist like i want to have a lot of money and i want to have like a rolls-royce command and a country mansion like a house in Beverly Hills and everything you know like servants running around and doing what i want
18:15
Joe Strummer: I've just thought about it a lot, and I just think there's nothing, there's nothing there. You can get all the Rolls Royces, all the Dove, all the country houses, all the servants you want. I just think there's nothing at the end of that road.
Jack Hazan: We didn't really know what the narrative would be. We didn't know what the storyline would be. That evolved. And once we had Ray, we sort of knew where we were going. But I mean, it would constantly change.
18:42
Jack Hazan: and we never really knew if we'd ever finish the film there was never any guarantee but I mean that's the way we were just in a bigger splash we never really knew if we'd finish but it's a process of evolution I mean it did it was constantly changing and The Clash would turn to us and say well what's all this what's it all about then what's the story really about and when we'd say well we don't really know we're not really sure yet I mean it's just forming itself
19:08
Jack Hazan: It's structuring itself and we're trying to structure it. We're trying to hold on to it. And I don't think they really believed us. They thought, you know, we had something over them. We didn't.
End of transcript