Papadopoulos, Dimitri. “The Clash.” New York Rocker, vol. 1, no. 10, October 1977, pp. 29, 30 & 37.
The Clash
— Extended interview with The Clash during autumn 1977. Paul Simonon, Mick Jones, Joe Strummer, and Topper Headon discuss violence with Teds, their rapid turnover of drummers, the debut LP, censorship on Top of the Pops, bans in Birmingham, and ambitions for touring America. They compare themselves with Sex Pistols, Subway Sect, Slits, and U.S. bands like The Ramones, Patti Smith, Talking Heads, and Blondie. The group reject disco, fashion fads, and “revivalist” bands, but champion reggae and street-level authenticity.
— Dunstable, live recording of “London’s Burning”; violent scenes at RCA art college gig; cancelled show in Birmingham; Topper mentions seeing the Sex Pistols at the Nashville and the Notting Hill Gate riot.
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The Clash
by Dimitri Papadopoulos
The Clash discuss being banned, violence with the Teds, their LP, America, roots and the future. The interview took place on a stretch of Kings Rd. bet-ween the Roundhouse & Dingwalls.
Paul Simonon: You don't know what to believe. One of the Teds just killed a punk.
Other guy: I just got killed the other day too. (laughter)
Paul Simonon: It's fuckin' horrible!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What's Your Name?
Drummer: Nickie Headon but they call me "Topper."
Dimitri Papadopoulos :How long have you been with the Clash?
Topper Headon: About three months.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Are you better than Rat Scabies?
Topper Headon: Fuck, alot better!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Are you in permanently now?
Topper Headon: Yeah.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What happened to your last drummer?
Paul Simonon: We got rid of him.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Why?
Paul Simonon: I don't know. We've had so many drummers it's hard to keep track. But like the first one we had was Terry Chimes, but...
Bernard Rhodes: No actually the first drummer we ever had was Rat Scabies. We found him.
Paul Simonon: Alright. That's before. I wasn't in the group then...but we got rid of one drummer, then we had another drummer. I don't know. We've had so many drummers because their views weren't the same as ours. Ya know?
Bernard Rhodes: We found Rat and caught him with his pants down...and we told him about our group. He like auditioned for us as a drummer. He was terrible. We started off with him and since then we've had how many?
Paul Simonon: About 200 (smiling). Now we have the last of the line. We had auditioned 77 since Christmas.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :You wrote a song called "I'm Bored With The U.S.A." What provoked that?
Paul Simonon: We ain't got nothing against you. It's just that in this country all we have on the telly is Kojak and American TV all the time. Cops all the time. I can't really answer that because I didn't write the song. Mick wrote it.
(Joe and Mick are not yet present in the office.)
I wanted to ask Joe a few questions on the 101'ers.
Paul Simonon: Oh God, don't!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Why not?
Paul Simonon: Oh, they weren't really a group. In the way that he was completely different from the other members. The other members were all really good musicians, where he wasn't as good as them so it was always like he felt a bit out of it somehow. The whole attitude of the group wasn't how a group should be; so when he met us-me and Mick-it went right. He saw us and actually thought to him-self that we're the type of blokes that actually looked as if we'd like to be in a group with.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Who else was in the 101'ers?
Paul Simonon: Nobody I know. Only Joe. Joe was the only one that actually stood out. The single is allright. Anyhow that's all Joe's past. Things are different now. We don't sing anything like that.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :(To the drummer) You weren't on the LP?
Topper Headon: No.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :How about the single?
Topper Headon: I was on the B-side. "London's Burning," which was a live version not used on the album. It was recorded at Dunstable which is about 30 miles outside of London.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Is it really hard for you to get jobs playing?
Paul Simonon: It's quite difficult. Yeah. Who's been banning you?
Paul Simonon: What?
Dimitri Papadopoulos :For playing in Birmingham. Or are you in general banned all over?
Paul Simonon: More or less, yeah. We can if we want to play abroad, but in this country yeah.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you want to play in the states?
-yes
-yes? Do you want to see anything in particular?
Paul Simonon: Yes, some friends. They live in New York. Do you like any of the American bands that have originated from C.B.G.B.'s?
Paul Simonon: Yeah, The Ramones, Patti Smith Band.
Topper Headon: Talking Heads.
Paul Simonon: Yeah, Talking Heads. Yeah they were quite good...well not all of them. Actually only two, that's about it.
Did you see Blondie when they came?
Paul Simonon: I didn't see Blondie. They really didn't inspire me to go see them. Also, like the image she puts across is very typical of what men expect women to look alike. Just the idea she's sort of like...I mean I don't like Television. I haven't seen them but I heard some of their album and it doesn't excite me. It sort of seemed like jazz music or something. I don't like jazz music; its sort of like too self indul-gent.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What about English groups?
Paul Subway Sect. Sex Pistols and a girl group called the Slits. Subway Sect have a really good song called "Nobody's Scared." It's a very abstract song, very strong
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Can you play on Top Of The Pops now?
Paul Simonon: Well sometime ago we couldn't because the Sex Pistols thing on TV put like a blanket over the punk bands. Including us. Now the Sex Pistols have been on the telly, so if we brought out a single now, we could be on Top Of The Pops.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you have a favorite fanzine?
Paul Simonon: Well, all they are really is different people's views about different things. I quite like them all because they all have different views. Every paper ...I get something out of every one. I mean ya got the bigger papers with their editors that censor their staff.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :I want to get your opinions on several groups. How about Eddie and the Hot Rods?
Paul Simonon: They're sort of the aceptable side of Punk, really. I mean there ain't nothing new in what they're doing. Really.
Topper Headon: They're a revivalist band. They rework old songs and everything.
Paul Simonon: They're not really a revivalist band. I mean like they're just there. They're like an offshoot of what's been going on in the past. Dr. Feelgood sort of stuff. Now the Sex Pistols have come along. So you sort of have the Sex Pistols over Here and Led Zeppelin over there and they're sort of in the mid-dle. They're sort of like waning.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :How old are you guys?
Topper Headon: -20
Paul Simonon: -21
Mick Jones: -22 (Mick enters)
Dimitri Papadopoulos :You're the old man in the group?
Mick Jones: No, Joe's older... he's 50. (Note: Joe is 23)
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What do you think of the Roxy LP?
Mick It's horrible. We don't like any of the groups, except for the Buzzcocks.
Paul Simonon: Yeah, the Buzzcocks are good.
Topper Headon: The Unwanted.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What's your typical day like now since the hand was formed?
Paul Simonon: We come into the studio and rehearse. Do any of you live with your parents?
Paul Simonon: Mick lives with his granny. I live with friends.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Does your grandmother read the dailies and get outraged?
Mick Jones: I'm too much in transit, now, We just work. Just sort of fool around with what we gotta do. We write songs, Joe and me. We rehearse, practice. It's quite alot. Sometimes design clothes. Like the ones we're wearing. I mostly just do my own.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you ever go to Seditionaries?
Mick Jones: I only went there when it was Sex. I haven't been there recently. Is the clothing gonna ruin everything by creating senseless fads?
Mick Jones: Well it's like a fashion, just a fashion sort of thing. It's an attitude that's all. It's really neat. How about this stuff with the Teds. Have the papers sort of liked...
Paul Simonon: They caused it all -They started it...
Paul Simonon: It's dangerous when you walk down the road. I'm a person who's always looking to see what's coming up behind my back. They're even people who are 30 or 40. Just ordinary blokes on the street who aren't even Teds. It's like when we were play-ing at RCA, the art collegitand there're like loads of kids who have come to se us and really enjoy it. And there're some blokes who are 35 and they're throwing bottles and like whole stage was lit-tered with bottles. They re really at it because there were all these young kids on stage playing music.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What do you think you'll doing in 5 years?
-1 dunno.
-we'll be dead, beaten up by Teds!!!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :You're really bothered by this!
Paul Simonon: Well nobody likes getting their heads kicked in.
Mick Jones: It's hard to deal with it.
Paul Simonon: You just got to be careful where you go. 1 mean if you go down to the Adam and Eve pub, you're in for trouble. 'Cause it's a Ted hangout. You just get to know where not to hang out. Ya know? That's one place where I can think of that's a Ted hangout.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Has it ever been different
Paul Simonon: Yeah once before I used to be friends with one. Long time before, really don't know any Teds now 'cause I don't really know any of my old friends now. I lost all me contacts. Because I'm doing something new.
(To himself, Paul sings a line from "5 Star Rock and Roll")
Dimitri Papadopoulos :You don't like that song?
Paul Simonon: It just makes me laugh because Joe sings it. He doesn't want to talk about it?
Paul Simonon: No. Don't bother. It's all in the past. I mean it's a completely different form of group.
Mick Jones: Have you heard the LP yet?
Dimitri Papadopoulos :No, just the singles. It wasn't out in America before I left.
Mick Jones: Buy it here and bring it back to all your friends.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Have you seen any money from the album?
Paul Simonon: Not for the last five weeks. We ain't seen our wages because there ain't no money left.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Were you getting a lot?
Paul Simonon: Enough to live on.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Enough to change you alot?
Paul Simonon: Oh, you could say yeah to a certain extent. But 1 mean like there are better things to do.
Mick Jones: One or two things.
Paul Simonon: Yeah like I bought a motorbike.
Mick Jones: And I bought a stereo.
Paul Simonon: And Joe bought a pub (laughter) That's just a joke.
Paul Simonon: (mumbles) A motor car factory, a tuba and a swimming pool in France.
Topper Headon: You should have come to the party last night. It was really awful. Me and Robbie played table tennis till 7 o'clock in the morning.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you do any non-originals?
Mick Jones: Yeah, "Police and Thieves". A Junior Murvin song. Clash defined!!! "Pressure Drop". -"Jumpin' Jack Flash" (laughter)
Dimitri Papadopoulos :You're going to Biringham?
Paul Simonon: Yes, tonight. Yeah, we're going up there to show the kids that we're ready to play, but because of your local authorities they stopped us. We can't play, so we wanna show the kids that we actually did show up to play.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Why did they stop you?
Paul Simonon: They don't like us, they think we're depraved.
Mick Jones: This was gonna be a real big event with thousands of people.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do they let the Jam play?
Paul Simonon: I don't really wanna answer that question. I don't like Jam. It's their whole sort of attitude in what they do. "We vote conservative". They came up with those jackets just like the Who used to wear. Wearing the suits, the three piece suits just like the Who.
Mick Jones: They're just a bunch of reactionary puppets.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you guys take drugs?
Paul Simonon: Ganja.
Mick Jones: It's good for you, it got rid of me cold. We just don't take drugs that make you useless.
Paul Simonon: I've taken amyl nitrate in art college. It's something to do. It's boring there in Art College. -I was gonna be an artist.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :There seems to be a whole history of English musicians who have come out from Art College.
Paul Simonon: It's like it's so easy to go to Art College because it's like when you leave school, all they of-fer you is a factory job. You don't want to work in a factory job. Alot of kids don't; I don;t know what it is. You can either work in a bank or work in an office. There are bank clerks but to me it really turns me off. The alternative is to go to art college, where you can mock about.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :...a little freedom.
Paul Simonon: Right! Art college is like a nice place to go after school. For 6 months it was really great, but then I was getting really bored. I was lucky. I met Mick because he said "why don't you join our group". And I did.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What did you use to do?
Mick Jones: I would just work. I'd have 15 jobs a year. But you can't do that anymore. It's hard to get work. You could a few years ago when there was lots of work, but NOW you got to stick to one job. Do you want to change things here in England?
Paul Simonon: There's so many things. Ain't there?
-Change it all.
Paul Simonon: It'd be like me starting to tell you what you want to change about America. It's so big.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What about getting work?
Paul Simonon: Well, we got the band, so we've got work. What were you doing before?
Mick Jones: Starving!!!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What kind of family do you come from?
Mick Jones: Just a family, ya know.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What's your father do?
Mick Jones: He's a teacher, but I ain't seen him in years.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What did you do? Did you run away?
Mick Jones: I just sort of finished school and started fly-ing.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Happy with your album?
Mick Jones: Yes. A bit bored with it actually. Bit bored now.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Too familiar with the songs?
Mick Jones: Yes you know it's like to do with the past. There are new things to be done now.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you mean another LP?
Mick Jones: We already have the best LP of 1977!!!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you have songs already? What are they called?
Mick Jones: Joe'll tell you. -No, tell him.
-We'll write and tell you (laughter).
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Why can't you tell me?
Paul Simonon: You asking me? I can't tell you and I'm not the one who writes them. You'll have to ask one of them to let the secret out.
-They are there.
Mick Jones: We still have to fight over the titles. We ain't had to fight over the titles yet so it ain't quite con-cluded yet. There's about 10 titles for each number.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you have any favorites on the first LP?
-Really all of them.
(Joe walks in. He looks noticeably older than the rest of the band.)
Paul Simonon: Joe, a question on the 101'ers. Joe: Who are they?
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you mind talking about them?
Joe Strummer: What do you want to know?
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What did you think of the single?
Joe Strummer: Single's allright. (Joe quickly runs out)
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Have you heard any of the American new wave records?
Mick Jones: Just a Ramones piece.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Television?
Mick Jones: I don't like Television.
Topper Headon: A bit boring. Musically they're o.k., but lyri-cally I think they're awful.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Ever heard Richard Hell?
Topper Headon: I heard the single. He looks really good.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Has he been an influence in England (with his hair)?
-Naw, not at all. Probably the only group that influenced me was the Sex Pistols. Really. It was the first group that got me on end. I saw them at the Nashville. I mean when I first joined the group 1 didn't know anything about ANY American bands, or anything, ya know.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Weren't you into music?
-Not really.
Clash, con't. on p. 37
Clash, con't. from p. 29
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Not even British favorites?
Mick Jones: Well, there was a few I liked. Alex Harvey. 1 quite enjoyed that a bit, but I couldn't really see anything else. It was like the night I saw the Sex Pistols. They really got me because they really worked it over.
-I liked some of Slade's songs.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Have you heard "Shenna Is A Punk Rocker"?
-I quite enjoy it. -It's like the Beachboys.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you dislike the Beachboys, because I was reading this British fanzine that said they didn't like "Sheena" because it was just as unrelatable as the Beachboys? Is surfing just a totally unrelatable subject?
Paul Simonon: Oh you can. When the Beachboys play London lots of people turn up. Like some of my old roommates in Art College in Wales really dig the Beachboys.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Are you all from London?
-Yes.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Like the Buzzcocks who come from Manchester, did they have to come to London?
I don't know. They started off playing a few dates in Manchester then they came here. They call it the "Smoke".
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Fog?
Paul Simonon: That's what they call this city. They say we're
coming to the smoke. It's kind of a big deal for them.
Mick Jones: So we don't have fog any more.
Paul Simonon: No, THEY don't want it any more. We sold it to the Americans.
-How have they done away with this? It's a pity 1 used to remember it...
Girl: I've never seen fog here, really. They stopped it, right? They banned it here. THEY BANNED IT!!! They used to have this small fog, with small scolls (???) it would get dark in the afternoons. WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL IT USED TO GET DARK IN THE AFTERNOONS WITH SMOG, but now they have no-smokeins. Now they don't actually have smog. They've effectively dane away with the weather.
Paul Simonon: They've banned the sunshine already.
(Girl starts talking to this other guy about the blackout in New York. Mick overhears and comments on the looting.)
Mick Jones: It's the best thing that's happened to New York in ages. Often if gets really good because like it started like that last year when you had the riot at Nottinghill Gate. Because in like some of the streets, you'd have a whole street taken over by these black kids and they'd just be smashing up these shops and there'd be people running up these different roads with food and stuff like that. Because the area is so run down and there's no sort of opportunity or anything like that for anybody... they took everything they could get.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Was "White Riot" influenced by this?
Mick Jones: Yes, because me and Joe were there and Joe wrote the song with the help of me.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do you like reggae?
Mick Jones: Like it very much. We like Fred Lox, Biggie Ouf, The Gladiators, there's quite a few.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Do any of you ever think you could turn to playing discos as a last resort for making money?
Paul Simonon: No. I'd never do it. I only wanna do things 1 enjoy.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :That's not always possible.
-But basically you try and do what you enjoy. That's like when I worked in a factory. I used to work in a factory. I used to take days off just to do some drawings or something. -Well, disco is like a factory.
Dimitri Papadopoulos :What do you think will be the future of the new wave?
-Well, we'll be around, unless we have arguments and split up. I MEAN LIKE WE AIN'T GONNA GO AWAY. WE'RE GONNA STILL PLAY IF THEY LET US!!!
Dimitri Papadopoulos :Have you seen the New York Rocker before?
Topper Headon: Yes, it's really quite good. Everything is inter-esting.
Mick Jones: What's the Weirdos like?
Dimitri Papadopoulos :I've never heard them, all I know is that they're from L.A. Have you seen this one the Dead Boys?
Mick Jones: Bunch of imitators, right? He looks stupid. They're doing it wrong.
The Clash: (1-r): Mick Jones; Paul Simonon; Joe Strummer
Anya Phillips
Anya Phillips
Yes they do take pictures with their drummer!
Sheila Rock
NEW YORK ROCKER | October 1977