Mohawk Revenge: The Clash 1983-1985
Chris Knowles
Part one of a 2005 interview with the great Nick Sheppard.
Chris
In 2001, what did you and Joe have to say about the Clash and the end of it all? Anything you'd like to share or was it mostly private stuff? I assume you guys came to some sort of understanding about it. Did you get the sense that Joe was upset about the way it all ended?
Nick
We did speak about my time in the band; Joe apologized for what happened, which was typical of him; unnecessary though - I told him I didn't regret a moment of the time I had spent in the band, and that, short of a couple of gripes over exclusions on The singles CD etc I was over any problems associated with that time. I know we were never The "classic" Clash, and that circumstances prevented us from reaching our potential, but I've moved on, made some great music, and have a great life. It's all a long time ago.
I think Joe saw that and Realized he didn't have to feel guilty - I certainly told him as much! He was upset at how things turned out for every-one - and by no means just because of the myth of the band etc. He cared about people.
Chris
Did you ever have discussions with Joe about how things were with Mick? Did he ever tell you the stories about Mick's behavior and drug habit? Also, Joe spent a lot less time kissing Mick's ass when he came around with the Meskies. Some of the old anger started seeping through again. Did you see that at all in 2001?
Nick
Only the same stuff that has been endlessly quoted, and only at the beginning of my involvement; as an explanation of why I was there. There was a definite sense of relief once I started rehearsing that we could get on with things quickly and efficiently. Joe said to me at that time "do you know hard it's been to find a Rock and Roll guitarist?!" No mention at all in 2001.
Chris
Were you and Vince mates? Or did you guys sort of just hang together more casually? What's your sense of who Vince was? He seemed to be the wild card in the mix. Were you surprised when he was hired on, and had you expected to be the sole lead guitarist?
Nick
Not mates, but we got on OK once we sorted out how to play together. That was a bit fraught at first. Vince was the first inkling I got of how Bernie worked; he was supposed to be the PUNK and got the gig by being surly and "punk" at the auditions. All of which was a front to hide his nerves! He was actually a very good player, and we ended up sharing lead work pretty evenly. What he wasn't was this cartoon punk, and we had to work through that! I was surprised he was hired - Joe's name was Strummer for fucks sake.
From that point of view I still think it was misguided, but it did give a sonic arsenal that Joe's style wouldn't. It took some pressure of me to fill some fucking big shoes, which I think was another reason.
Great story - Vince's real name is Greg, but he was told that he had to change it 'coz it wasn't cool enough. He was a bit bemused by this, so Paul said "name me one cool guy called Greg" to which he instantly replied "Gregory Isaacs" (Reggae singer - nickname "the cool ruler"!). That shut everyone up!!!! Still changed his name though!
Chris
Who did the arrangements of the material? Was that a group project?
Nick
Joe, Paul and Pete had arrangements worked out for a lot of the stuff, but after that, and as far as my contributions went it was a group thing - nobody was precious. Very healthy.
Chris
Give Em Enough Rope and that era seems to be the reference point for the new songs. Three Card Trick borrowed the big drum roll from I Fought the Law, Jericho borrowed the muted E chord intro from English Civil War, Dictator had elements of Tommy Gun, We Are the Clash had a lot of different sections like some of the Rope songs, etc. Was this conscious?
Nick
On Joe's part I suspect as much - I felt a similarity of intent between the new songs and that era, although it was never specifically mentioned. I think the two Les Paul sound lent itself very well to that style, and songs from that era translated very quickly to the new set-up. Bernie was adamant that we both play Les Pauls; he wanted The Pistols guitar sound! He was very suspicious when I bought a Junior, but couldn't argue with the logo on the headstock!
I'll get you a copy of the first rehearsals; lots of unreleased songs, lots of other styles and ideas that fell by the wayside as the "Party Line" was formulated
Chris
Was Jericho supposed to be a Surf number a la Dick Dale? Was This is England composed as a Reggae Rock number a la Police and Thieves and White Man?
Nick
Jericho was supposed to be exactly what it sounds like - Joe wrote the guitar line and everything.
This is England grew organically out of sound-checks and performance. No particular musical style was ever discussed in relation to that tune, as opposed to, say Ready for War, which obviously had Funk/Hip Hop elements to it. We ever didn't sit round and say "right, this one's the reggae number".
The songs lent themselves to different stylistic influences, and I think the mix of those influences was very interesting and promising.
Chris
What did you think of Joe's songs? Did you think they were up to par?
Nick
They lacked, on occasion, the killer chorus that Mick was so good at. But not always; This is England, North and South, Pouring Rain. Hard to judge, in that they were always up against very well known "classics" that every-one sang along to live. As far as the record goes, I believe that in different circumstances Joes songs would have stood up very well against his previous work.
Chris
Why were the new songs slowly dropped from the set lists as the tour went on? We Are the Clash and Glue Zombie didn't get played in America, and the Dictator and This is England were cycled out. Any reason for this?
Nick
I think initially we played a load of new songs to prove a point - in fact I remember some smart arse journalist remarking that we played a lot of old songs in our (2 1/2 hour) set! Kosmo politely informed him that we were playing far more new songs than the band had ever done on previous tours. As the "New" band thing died down a bit, Joe felt less pressure to fill the set with new songs.
Chris
How many songs were rehearsed but never played live?
NIck
Half a dozen from the initial rehearsals - at least half the album.
Chris
After the tour, the new songs like Dirty Punk, North and South, Fingerpoppin', Cool Under Heat and the rest seemed a lot different. Most of the lyrics didn't seem to be as pointed politically and the songs weren't as tightly arranged. Did you start to get nervous when these tracks appeared?
Nick
All the songs you mentioned were written for the album, and we didn't ever arrange them as a band (North and South did get played at the Miners Benefits, but we hardly worked on the arrangement at all). By this time, things had got very weird - Bernie was doing a real number on every-one. We were spending hours rehearsing pointlessly; sometimes with Paul, never with Joe, who was presumably writing these songs. To be fair, we got a fucking great sound together between us - I remember Kosmo coming down and being bowled over by the power and ferocity we generated. Trouble is, we never got to use it on any new stuff, and it had nothing to do with the eventual recording. I did some work on the new songs round at Joe's house - solo's, some rhythm guitar, and spliff rolling! I was also called into Lucky 8 on Xmas eve, played the whole album song by song and expected to come up with something for every song, which I fucking did! Not really a sensible way to prepare for a recording session, but we are talking Bernie here, and there's no real way to explain that mind-fuck unless you've been there!
Chris
In general, how was the crowd response as you felt it? I know some of the US dates were underpromoted and underattended. Did this bother you, especially in comparison to the UK and Europe success?
Nick
No, not at all. They were all big gigs, as far as I was concerned, and every-one down the front was going off! Obviously that side of things was of concern to management, but it never crossed my mind. Bernie only talked about it once - he had been talking to some yank industry type, and proudly told him how we had sold out two nights in Boston, only to have this guy go "yeah, But how quickly did you sell out?"!
Chris
The UK press was pretty hostile. Did this bother you?
As with crowd response, not really. There were always fans and writers who thought we were crap, but there seemed to be far far more fans that were dead into it. Again, I was under no illusions, we were never going to be 'The Clash" that a generation, including me, grew up in awe of, and as a result we copped a lot flack, but I hoped we would be able to get past that once we made a fantastic record! Then things got weird, and ideas like that got forgotten as I held on for dear life!
On the press angle - after the first album The Clash hardly ever got good press - have a look at the recent NME collection of Clash articles.
Chris
Was there still a considerable Punk community in England or was it over by 1984?
Nick
Yes and No - people my age - 24 - had moved on from Punk, but were informed and inspired by it. To be fair, The Clash had moved on as well. There was still a huge audience for the band - but punk had really lost it's relevance as a musical form by '84. There were lots of punks, but they were stuck in a time warp and a bottle of glue.
Chris
Did Joe ride you guys pretty hard when it came to the performances? He had a lot riding on them. Were there ever any rows or was everyone on the same page?
Nick
As I remember we were on the same page. Bad gigs got the once over, but as no-one ever individually fucked up as far as drink/drugs went, it would be taken as a group problem. There were no passengers. I think that in general, we gave very good performances, and in some cases fucking magnificent ones!
What Joes said after the fact, and obviously can't compare the two myself, other than to say the last two Clash shows I saw as a punter, in Bristol and San Francisco, were terrible.
Chris
In 1985, when did you get the feeling it was all over? I saw the Roskilde video and Joe seems to be phoning it in for most of the show. Were the busking shows the end, basically?
Nick
On the bus to The Roskilde show, Joe gave Bernie a look of pure contempt, and I knew it was all over, at least between them. I enjoyed that show; I enjoyed all the last festival shows - the Athens show was incredible! I was really past caring by then, and I was, as a result, a lot more confident of my own abilities, than previously. When the end did come, I immediately got stuck into my next project - Head. For me, it was a real relief to be able to write and arrange again, and the shit poured out of me! In a sense, I became what Bernie wanted me to be but wouldn't let me be!
In terms of any real group interaction, yes the busking shows were the last gasp - and also probably the most honest and real period of time we spent together as a group.
Nick Sheppard Interview, part 2: Making the album
Nick
Norman played a lot of bass on "Crap", Paul played "some". I played bass on This is England. I went to Munich before Vince and Paul and played a lot of guitar. Joe did a lot of rhythm too. Bernie can't play and didn't. There was a keyboard player, German, who I never met, and a guitarist (again German), who's contributions weren't used because they were absurd, but who had a nice Les Paul that I borrowed.
Vince came a couple of weeks after me, and I would say that 90% of the guitar you hear on the record is Him or me. We played track after track of Neanderthal punk rock guitar on everything - soul destroying, especially with Bernie telling you your rubbish after every take! Michael Faney was there, and programmed the drum machine, and probably played some of the keyboards and helped with the samples.
Mickey Gallagher never went to Munich, and didn't play on the record. He did rehearse with Joe, Pete and Norman for a week or two at Lucky 8 in Camden, but I'm guessing Bernie found the results too old-fashioned. While these rehearsals were taking place, Vince and I were told by Kosmo that we would be playing on a record of poetry by the very wonderful Jock Scott. I don't know if Jock was aware of this, and although I'm a big fan of his work, it wasn't exactly what I had in mind at the time!
I think Bernie was really trying to make a modern punk record, using Hip Hop influences and modern technology (the studio was state of the art). The trouble was he doesn't have a musical bone in his body, and didn't get any where near the best performances from those around him who were able to translate ideas into music.
All good music, whatever the technology behind it, is intrinsically organic. If you listen to "A Snog On The Rocks", by Head, the band I formed with Gareth Sager after The Clash, you'll hear very similar use of samples, and Hip Hop influences, but in a much more musical and unforced environment. Consequently, it's a far better record.
Bernie was, and presumably still is a very clever and perceptive man. Unfortunately for him, he's also a control freak, a megalomaniac, and a complete bastard!
Joe always said that he fell to ego, and "dropped the plate", but I think Bernie ultimately destroyed what he came to see as HIS band by getting involved in areas he had no talent for at the expense of those around him that did. Who knows what we would have come up with left to our own devices and given a different producer - not "Cut The Crap" that's for sure.
Nick Sheppard interview, on the audition process.
Chris
Tell me a bit about the auditions and rehearsals.
Nick
Auditions were held initially at In a big bar in Camden, Hundreds of guitarists lined up to play along to a backing tape, obviously recorded by Joe, Paul, and Pete. There were three songs, I think; a New Orleans 12 bar, a kind of "Clash Funk" thing, and something else! I was going out with a girl who's friend worked in the Clash office, above Lucky 8, so I knew who I was auditioning for. The huge majority had no idea. I was in the pub before; it was full of nervous guys with guitars. Some-one asked me if I knew who the audition was for, and when I said "The Clash" half the room cleared!
The second phase - weeks later - was at Lucky 8, on my own, with the same tape machine and longer to work some ideas out. The band were in the pub down the road - I know because I went in to wait my turn. After that go, Kosmo took me to the pub ( a different one) and interviewed me. I told him I knew who I was auditioning for; flustered, he intimated that the try-outs were for a variety of different projects, and I said I was only interested in the one!
After that, and another long wait, it was straight into rehearsals; at what point I was "safe" I don't know. But I was made to feel the job was mine immediately.
Chris
How many songs were rehearsed but never played live? You mentioned Galleani, but were there any others?
Nick
Quite a few - up to 8 or 10 I think. They were far a more eclectic bunch of tunes than we ended up with. Lots of World Music influences - the stuff Joe and Paul have always been into. Latin, African grooves, that kind of thing.
Chris
You had mentioned in another interview that Joe would give you guys sort of pep talks. And you had said that you felt he was rehearsing his eventual interviews. What sorts of things did he talk about?
Nick
The state of the competition - how crap everything had got. How spineless and safe; no politics etc. Of course, he was talking about the mainstream, which was what we were going to take on. I seem to remember another rant being that the alternative scene was ghetto-ized and would never be able to take on the big guns. This stuff came also from Kosmo. Bernie started to get involved, but that was way to esoteric, or personal; he just confused and frustrated me. I can't say I learnt much from him directly.
Chris
The whole back to Punk issue: what did Joe tell you guys about that?
Nick
I don't recall that being the premise - that would have been seen as going backwards. It was more a back to basics approach, after what were seen as the excesses of the last days of Mick's involvement. Also, it was a sensible move, given the inexperience of the band; keep it simple. There was a very strong work ethic about the whole thing - no drugs, 5 day weeks and long talks in the pub after work. Very "bonding" and intense. No specific back to punk plan.
Chris
Bernie would berate Pete constantly. Did he pull the same with you or was he more diplomatic with you?
Nick
Diplomatic is not a word I associate with Bernard ("Don't call me Bernie, I'm not a fucking cab driver") - I lent Vic Goddard a guitar, a beautiful '64 Telecaster that I had owned for years and loved - Vic was a junkie (this I was not aware of) and so of course he sold it for smack. I was fucking furious; when I told Bernie what I thought of the little fucker, Bernie informed me that I was a "failure junkie" - so it was my fault!!!
Continuing with Nick Sheppard interview:
Chris
What did Paul have to say during this period?
Nick
Not a lot about "The Quest". We hung out quite a lot, and got to know each other well. I got on very well with Paul. We'd talk about music and clothes and stuff, but no Party Line. Paul works from instinct - he is one of the few genuinely cool people I know.
Chris
What were your impressions on the first leg of the tour in California? Also, the sound quality was pretty rough for those gigs- did you guys upgrade your gear as the shows went along?
Nick
We were pretty loose, as I remember. I don't know what else we could have been really. I always thought we should have done some "commando" style secret club gigs before we played any halls/arenas. As far as gear went, we could have what we wanted; so we fine tuned it as we went on, rather than upgrading. The sound definitely got much better very quickly. If you've never played those big stages, there's a lot of adjusting to do.
Chris
Did you guys get a lot of groupie action or was it mostly crunchy political chicks that came backstage? I remember some pretty cute girls backstage at Worcester and Providence.
Nick
Yep, lots of girls! Any one who wanted to talk about their experiences in Nicaragua were gently guided in Joe's direction - to his credit he was courteous to all of them. I was 24, single and in a very cool band, it wasn't all lectures from Bernie...
Chris
Do you remember a tall, thin, 16 year-old black girl named Kayren that hung out with you guys after the gig at Providence? That was my girlfriend and she left me that night for you lot!!!
Nick
No, I don’t Chris, Honest! A friend of mine from Bristol was at that gig - he built boats in Providence - so we went off to some bar in town.
Chris
Was there any drama at any of the shows? I know of a few incidents were you stepped in to protect fans from bouncers. Any memorable stories of that?
Nick
I can't remember any drama in America - I once knocked out a security guy in Italy who mistook me for a fan as we left the stage; a bit daft as I still had a guitar on!!!
Chris
The setlists seemed to be almost identical to late Clash lists as the tour progressed. How did you feel playing the material like Jimmy Jazz, Broadway and Bankrobber?
Nick
We didn't play Jimmy Jazz well - it didn't swing, but I think the others were great and I loved playing them. As we got to know each other musically, which we had to do in public, and developed our own sound, I guess Joe felt confident enough to introduce more complex tunes into the set. We would work them up at sound-checks and they would get in the set when they were ready. I absolutely never had a problem with broadening our horizons musically - see Pouring Rain, which I arranged, and contributed to musically. The whole "Party Line" didn't register with me at all once I picked up the guitar.
Having said that, we were definitely a heavier, more hard rock proposition than the previous incarnation - our versions of Broadway, Magnificent Secen and Rock the Casbah don't mess about. Personally, I really like bands who take liberties with their material, who change arrangements to suit their mood. It's like jazz; take a standard and fuck with it. I also see no problem with treating the studio and live performance as two different entities.
I think The Clash Mk.2 played a great rock gig; on occasion a fucking fantastic rock gig. The studio could have been anything we wanted it to be...
MORE NICK SHEPPARD
Chris
Joe said in interviews that the plan was to work the band into shape and get straight into the studio. Was that discussed and did that influence your live playing?
Nick
Yes, then dropped, then after we came off the road, plans would change from day to day! Obviously it was felt that live and studio would be different entities by who-ever was making these plans. I think Bernie saw an opening and pushed himself in instead of letting the band fill it - he wanted to be in the band! On tour, we worked on arrangements and new songs - This is England - but the focus was on playing them live as a band.
Chris
Tell me the story of Kosmo and the Grateful Dead roadies.
Nick
In Philadelphia we stayed at the same hotel as The Dead. I don't know what I got up to, but when I got on the bus in the morning neither Joe or Koz had been to sleep, and Joe had a pillow of hippy hair! Apparently Kosmo had set up a Mohawk barber service in the Dead's entertainment suite and cut hair all night. One guy had half his hair cut and said "that's great, leave it like that"! They had a great time.
Chris
What happened in Ann Arbor Michigan when the money was stolen?
Nick
All hell was let loose! The Police interviewed every-one separately except for us as we were on stage when it happened. The money was never found.
Chris
How was Joe's mood by tour's end?
Nick
He was exhausted at the end of the U.S. Tour and definitely over it by the time we got to Vancouver, the last gig. He just wanted to go home and see his wife and baby, I guess. However, leading up to the last three gigs we had a three day drive from Denver, which Joe Hijacked and turned, with our support, into a cultural and historical tour of the Oregon Trail. We stopped et Pony express stations, I swam in the Snake River, we stayed in Pendleton, Oregon and hung out with some hopelessly alcoholic native American Indians. We had a fantastic time; Joe had a book or pamphlet about the Oregon Trail and would read from it when we stopped at various places. He was in his element; it was like a little holiday in the middle of the tour. Bernie wasn't there - he flew. We had other great days off in Chicago, Atlanta, Toronto, Detroit; shopping, eating soul food, watching protest marches, being taken out by great looking girls! I've had worse jobs, believe me.
Chris
Were there extensive rehearsals for the Italy and Scargills shows? The band seemed pretty rusty for the Brixton dates.
Nick
The band rehearsed without Joe for Italy, as I remember and only briefly for the Scargill dates . This may have been to do with Joe's mum's condition - I don't know. I wasn't aware of any of that until after we had split; he never spoke to me about it, even in Munich, were we spent a lot of time together.
Chris
Did you feel that the more nuanced direction the band was taking by the tour's end would continue?
Nick
I hoped so, and at some points in the next six months it seemed to be going that way. I just wanted us to develop as a band and find our own voice, whatever that might be. I think it's very sad that we weren't allowed to. I don't think we would have ended up playing jazz funk, but the fact that Pouring Rain was cut out of the rep was a problem as far as I was concerned.